Wednesday, June 16, 2010

Where is the line?

Before people start a 'flame war' about my post, let me put forth a few choice words:
  • This is MY blog and my personal opinion. I do not represent any of the churches mentioned.
  • This post is NOT to justify an apology, nor is it to apologise for being a Christian.
  • I understand the Religious Act. I do not intend to offend anyone and I will not tolerate offensive remarks to other religions in the comments.
I refer to this article "New Creation Church pastor apologises" from Today (read here).

To the recent witch-hunts on Christian churches and organisations especially Lighthouse Evangelism, City Harvest and New Creation Church:

What is your problem?!!


Seriously I have met many people cussing under their breaths the name of Jesus. Especially so when they are in serious trouble or whenever they are faced with intimidating challenges: F-Jesus. We know what the 'F' stands for.

You don't see me making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't even frown at it because His name is far above all other names. That is enough for me. He doesn't need me to 'stand up' for His name. He can take care of Himself, thank you.

That goes for people who want to say about Christianity, the holy goat (as in 4 Weddings and A Funeral) or even about God. They can say all they want until the moon turns blue or kingdom comes. I take no offense at all because I don't expect those who are not of the same faith to know the truth. Truth as in the gospel truth.

I wonder why is a copyrighted video put in YouTube? Is it really to share the 'truth'? I smell an intent to tear a great church down and get an europhic feeling that 'It is I who have brought this giantic religious organisation down on its knees'.

Gee... allow me to share my thoughts - it's not going to change anything. Really it doesn't.

Because these churches aren't build by human hands. Jesus did by His blood. That said, churches are still run by humans who are fallable.

Are churches above the law of a country? Of course not! They are accountable to what they say. If you have seen the video, it does not bode on 'making fun' of other religions. And that goes to say about Lighthouse Evangelism sermons too. They were meant for their congregation who understands the context of the message.

Well bad publicity is still publicity. And all we know that these churches will continue to grow from strength to strength in numbers and miracles.

My opinion is that their senior pastors understand, believe and practice the principle of 'Reap what you sow'. To clarify this verse, it does not refer to sins but rather generous giving as in the context of Paul's letter. Thus I won't be surprised if  their members give generously too. And a good steward manages the finance God has blessed him with well.

Recently I have seen awesome church buildings in Singapore. All I can say is 'Thank you Jesus'. Why?

Imagine you toured Taj Mahal. Would we think what a selfish king he was to spend so much of his wealth on a single woman who had died? No we will rather be awed by its beauty and structure, even more touched by the story behind its origin - the love for his queen. Read here.

Or what if King Solomon's temple is still standing today? Will we think Solomon is so unwise to squander all his wealth on a temple? Of course not! When one knows the Source of his blessings, he will bless the Blesser who had made him rich.

Out of the overflowing blessings we have received, we have buildings to magnify the greatness of His love for us. He died to give us all that He had. That is how Jesus is to us. God blesses us according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Even the cathedrals in Europe are awesome in wonder and splendour. That was years and years ago. How much more will His church grow from glory to glory each day!

I have said time and again, if a Muslim were to stand up for his faith and call other religion followers or non-believers as 'infidels' (as quoted in the Qur'an), he will be highly regarded for his faith.

But when a Christian compares his faith with other religions and shares about the absurdity of them, he will be condemned with intolerance and arrogance.

Take your pick - infidel, or misguided in faith.

It is no wonder Paul had so many hardships in telling people the gospel truth. The question is not whether he is telling the truth but rather do people want to be set free.

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's the work of troublemakers. The one who uploaded the video onto YouTube isn't even a believer of any religion.

Or should I say, in the spiritual realm, it is the work of the devil.

Lesson for CHC, Lighthouse, NCC, etc. is not to flaunt your 'greatness' and speak arrogantly against whom you might regard as 'lesser beings' and their beliefs.

Do not do anything that allows the devil to find fault with you. Wake up and see him and his entourage eagerly waiting for a chance to strike.

No matter how big, rich and powerful you think you are, you cannot defeat him. Only God can. Nor can you be God.

Be humble and may God have mercy on you.

Kaffein said...

Hi Anon3:00AM,
I agree that it inclined towards troublemaking than actually being offended.

Most people I know understand that there are various belief systems. When we have different beliefs, there will definitely be differences in interpretations, and strong inclinations towards being right. Even within a religion itself, we see fractions. From my watching of the video, I did not see anything bordering on insult.

Now I beg to differ about flaunting one's greatness and flaunting the greatness of our Lord. Take Taj Mahal for example. Is it flaunting one's greatness or flaunting the greatness of the king's love? What about King Solomon's temple? Hence where do we draw the line?

One man's beauty is another man's eyesore. To you it might be arrogance, to them it might be a declaration of God's goodness. But surely I tell you, even when these churches live like hermits, someone is bound to find fault with them. Why? Because they are growing huge in numbers.

For me, wake up and see Jesus and His love eagerly waiting for a chance to overwhelm me. It is Him who commands His angels to watch over me. Definitely not see the devil! Why would I want to see him anyway?.

For me, my friend, God already had mercy on us 2000 thousand years ago when He sent His Son to die for us. It was mercy and justice meeting at the cross. When we know how much we are saved, we will be humbled.

Cheers,
Kaffein

auwan said...

Don't you think it's only human nature to become defensive and "intolerant" when someone tells you your religion is "absurd"?

Being called an "infidel" is much more comforting in comparison. Why would you care about people who insult you for not believing in their "false" religion? You know the truth, after all.

Anonymous said...

Hi Kaffein,

There is a thin line between flaunting one's greatness and glorifying God.

There is a difference between Solomon's Temple and the Tower of Babel.

On thing that strikes me most about NCC Pastor Mark's sermon is that he lavished an inordinate amount of praise on Pastor Prince on his worldly achievements, so much so, I was wondering when he would actually get down to God's word.

In fact, if I were to take offence, it is not the so-called mocking of other religions (Christians and Christianity have had more than their share of taking insults but, where is the call for blood?) So what if they call us morons and our religion a hallucination? Who cares? Anyway, I digressed :)

I would have questioned why he needed to talk so much about Pastor Prince when preaching his sermon. Who is he worshipping?

Anonymous said...

I also do not agree with many of the spiritual principles propagated by CHC and NCC but I will not judge, as ultimately, they are the ones answerable to God.

Nevertheless, I am concerned about the motivation and 'quality' of followers who joined the churches based on the prosperity gospel and 'cheap grace'.

Because personally, I believe Christianity is about fulfilling God's masterplan. It is not about us, but about God. God looks at the heart, then our works. There is too much emphasis on self and works in these churches.

But rest assured, although I do not condone some of their practices, I do not condemn them, but my prayers are with them.

gentle lamb said...

Depends on how long winded you are.

If they wanted to find fault on 2000 years of Christianity, they could and much more.

Paul was persecuted, as he was against the legalism of organized religion. He would be a "trouble maker" if he was alive today against our mega churches.

Anonymous said...

Sure, I do not want to see the devil too, but definitely he is watching my every move and will cause me to stumble at every chance I can get.

He is there, whether we wish to acknowledge his presence and it would be foolish to ignore someone who wants to cause us harm wouldn't?

Although Jesus has defeated the devil, it does not mean he cannot cause us harm. If we answer to his temptations, we are surrendering the victory we have in Jesus. We need to be vigilant and what better way to do that than to know the devil and his tricks and learning how to handle his attacks?

We need to know our enemy in order to resist and defeat him in his attempt to take over our lives.

Ok, I think I have said enough for now :) Got carried away.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

Being persecuted comes with Christianity.

If we aren't persecuted, there is something wrong. But the work of the devil comes in many forms.

We need to reflect constantly and examine our hearts constantly. That requires humility to admit that sometimes we do make mistakes and listen to others brothers and sisters when they admonish us.

Pride is dangerous.

Kaffein said...

Ok... let's take it slow.

@auwan:
"Don't you think it's only human nature to become defensive and "intolerant" when someone tells you your religion is "absurd"?"

Kaffein:
Of course I would if it was MY religion and if I started it. But as my faith understands - Christianity wasn't birth by human hands. So I really don't give a hoot what others think about it. That's for my personal side.

From your point of view, yes we tend to become 'intolerant' and rigid when someone fails to understand what we understand, to see what we see.

However for this article alone, Pst Mark was speaking to his church congregation, who understands the context of his message. It wasn't a broadcast 'live' on TV. Hence where do we draw the line?

@auwan:
Being called an "infidel" is much more comforting in comparison.

Kaffein:
Are you sure? I would take offense. Yet I don't go on a witch-hunt on some Muslim clerics who used 'infidel' on me.

@auwan:
Why would you care about people who insult you for not believing in their "false" religion? You know the truth, after all.

Kaffein:
Exactly my point, auwan. I think you are seeing my point - why would you care about people who insult you for not believing in their beliefs, since you know the 'truth'?

Hence my article - where do we draw the line?

Kaffein

Kaffein said...

@Anon6:09 PM:
There is a difference between Solomon's Temple and the Tower of Babel.

Kaffein:
Is there really a difference? Both are man-made. One glorifies God, one glorifies man. But in the eyes of a human mortal, does it matter?

Who are we to say which glorifies God, which glorifies man? Only the fruit, my friend. Only when people's lives are changed and they fall in love with Jesus more and more.

That IS the difference.

@Anon6:09 PM:
On thing that strikes me most about NCC Pastor Mark's sermon is that he lavished an inordinate amount of praise on Pastor Prince on his worldly achievements, so much so, I was wondering when he would actually get down to God's word.

Kaffein:
Can you confirm that Pst Mark did not preach the Word but rather preach Pst Prince's achievements? Hmmm I have been there numerous times but surely I did not see him glorifying Pst Prince.

All I saw was his utmost respect for a man (Pst Prince) whom God used to change his life. A broken life changed from gambling, wasting his life away and steeped in debt of $16million. If you had been him, would you not share about how God had used this man to change your life? I would.

Btw every great man of God like Paul had an Annaias. :) Just that in this case both have great ministries.

@Anon6:09 PM:
In fact, if I were to take offence, it is not the so-called mocking of other religions (Christians and Christianity have had more than their share of taking insults but, where is the call for blood?) So what if they call us morons and our religion a hallucination? Who cares? Anyway, I digressed :)

Kaffein:
What cares about what others think :)

@Anon6:09 PM:
I would have questioned why he needed to talk so much about Pastor Prince when preaching his sermon. Who is he worshipping?

Kaffein:
My friend, we are not there as his mentor, or teacher of the law to 'spot check' on him. I sincerely believe he is giving respect to the one whom God used to change his life.

I have heard his sermons. I am steadfast that he is NOT worshipping Pst Prince. Because Pst Prince keeps reminding his congregation that he is nothing. It all points back to Jesus.

On a side note, God has used me to touch many lives over the years. Till today many of them still speak of me to their friends and how their lives were changed.

A preacher told me:
It is alright to accept the praise given to you. But at the end of the day, take those praises and lift them up to Jesus because it is always His.

Hope that helps.

Kaffein

Kaffein said...

@Anon6:16 PM:
I also do not agree with many of the spiritual principles propagated by CHC and NCC but I will not judge, as ultimately, they are the ones answerable to God.

Kaffein:
Exactly who are we to be answerable for them to God. If they want to be prosperous, let them be. Of course I would rather be with them.

If we think prosperity is not good, then perhaps we should pass up the next promotion and not be 'greedy'.

@Anon6:16 PM:
Nevertheless, I am concerned about the motivation and 'quality' of followers who joined the churches based on the prosperity gospel and 'cheap grace'.

Kaffein:
Oh...? You are concerned. Hmm... I'm not sure about quality of followers. Jesus sure didn't have quality disciples. Yet they were powerful and effective in their own after receiving the Holy Spirit. So I'd rather NOT be concerned at all but rest in the truth that God will work in their lives.

As for 'cheap' grace, it was never cheap. It came free, but Christ paid a heavy price none of us could afford. So I wouldn't use that term at all. There was never a cheap grace.

From my hearing of the messages from NCC, all their pastors have alleviated grace to a higher level I have not heard from many churches. They value and esteem the work of Jesus at the cross.

So I do not know where you coined 'cheap grace' from.

@Anon6:16 PM:
Because personally, I believe Christianity is about fulfilling God's masterplan. It is not about us, but about God.

Kaffein:
My friend, pray tell me what is God's masterplan. I am eager to know. He hasn't revealed to me yet.


@Anon6:16 PM:
God looks at the heart, then our works. There is too much emphasis on self and works in these churches.

Kaffein:
Are you sure about NCC? Again from my hearing of their sermons, they don't focus on self and works but rather the finsihed work of Jesus. I can't say for CHC though.

@Anon6:16 PM:
But rest assured, although I do not condone some of their practices, I do not condemn them, but my prayers are with them.

Kaffein:
So are my prayers :)

Kaffein said...

@gentlelamb
Paul was persecuted, as he was against the legalism of organized religion. He would be a "trouble maker" if he was alive today against our mega churches.

Kaffein:
Why would he be against the mega churches? And what made you say that?

From my bible, Paul mentioned that he does not care who preaches the gospel except that the gospel is preached.

I don't think he will be against the mega churches of today. I'd think he would be glad how much had been achieved through these churches.

But that is my personal opinion, as you wrote yours.

Kaffein said...

@Anon6:33 PM
We need to reflect constantly and examine our hearts constantly.

Kaffein:
I don't need to examine my heart, my friend. Let me tell you what it is - all black and yucky. There is NOTHING good inside.

Hence Jesus came to die for me. So now I examine Jesus' heart, not mine. If my heart had been good, Jesus would not have come, agree?

So each day I look into Jesus' heart and see the beauty and love inside. And I tell myself:

This is how much Jesus loves me in spite of the condition of my heart. He died for me.

That is true humility, my friend. To admit that Jesus makes no mistake in dying for me. I don't want to examine myself. I know there are many ugly things within.

At least pride Jesus can still save when His love breaks through. But a more scary thing is this that Paul wrote: When you are under law (self-effort), you have fallen from grace, and Christ is of no effect to you.

Pride is dangerous. Even more dangerous is self-effort.

Anonymous said...

Kaffein,

God's masterplan is his redemption plan for His kingdom (Matthew 13:24-30). The great commission (Matthew 28:19,20) is to bring the gospel to all the world, to reclaim the souls that were lost back to His kingdom, not to build up treasures on earth.

"Is there really a difference? Both are man-made. One glorifies God, one glorifies man. But in the eyes of a human mortal, does it matter?"

In the eyes of God, it matters. Are we living to please God or man?

"If we think prosperity is not good, then perhaps we should pass up the next promotion and not be 'greedy'."

There is nothing wrong with being prosperous, but as you rightly pointed out, it is greed that is the problem. It is a matter of priority. Do we go to church because we want to be prosperous or because we want to worship God? Would we still believe in Jesus without what the prosperity gospel promises?

As for being answerable to God, exactly, it is them who will answer to God, and that is why I do not condemn even though I disagree. But if what they propagate misleads lost souls or young Christians, then it is imperative to speak up against that which contradicts the God's word.

"Can you confirm that Pst Mark did not preach the Word but rather preach Pst Prince's achievements? Hmmm I have been there numerous times but surely I did not see him glorifying Pst Prince."

I was referring to the video that was uploaded onto YouTube, which NCC subsequently requested to be removed after the uproar. After lavishing praise on Pastor Prince, he went on to joke about Chinese superstition. How are we to win the lost souls back if we ridicule them?

"Jesus sure didn't have quality disciples. Yet they were powerful and effective in their own after receiving the Holy Spirit. So I'd rather NOT be concerned at all but rest in the truth that God will work in their lives."

Yes he did have quality disciples although they made mistakes and were not perfect. They obeyed the Great Commission, and they did not accumulate riches for themselves on earth or preached the prosperity gospel. They did not follow Jesus to get rich.

Anonymous said...

cont'd

"I don't need to examine my heart, my friend. Let me tell you what it is - all black and yucky. There is NOTHING good inside."

I hope that was before you accepted Jesus, because as Christians, we are to emulate Christ. We are to strive towards having a pure heart.

Psalm 51:10 "Create in me a pure heart or God..."

Philippians 4:8,9 "Whatever is...noble,...pure,..lovely,...Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me - put into practice..."

Also, by examining our hearts, I meant whether we were truly living to please God. Or whether we go to church for some other reasons, for our own benefits.

1 Chronicles 28:9 "...for God searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts..."

'Cheap grace' was used by Pastor Kong Hee. I borrowed the term from him. Yes, grace from Jesus is not cheap. But that is not what that term meant.

'Cheap grace', as I understand it, refers to grace that can be enjoyed without any cost to the believer. He can go on sinning and will still be forgiven. That is true, but why is this grace cheap?

Believers who do keep committing the same sins knowing that they would be forgiven are taking God's grace for granted. It is like a husband who keeps committing adultery, knowing that his wife would always forgive him. Although it cost his wife much, her grace is cheap to him because he does not value it.

I do not know what is meant by elevating grace but we are to elevate God in our worship. We do not worship grace, we worship God. Grace is precious, but it is only one aspect of salvation. Besides grace, God is also capable of wrath and mercy. By focusing too much on grace, we run the danger of downplaying the role of wrath and mercy which underscore God's disapproval of sin.

So, it is not alright to go on saying that our hearts are black and ugly but it's fine because Jesus died for us; or that we should not be too concerned about our sins because God forgives us anyway.

"I don't want to examine myself. I know there are many ugly things within."

So, we need to examine ourselves and confess the ugly things within to God and ask Him to create in us a pure heart.

Anonymous said...

"Pride is dangerous. Even more dangerous is self-effort."

Depends on what the effort is spent on. We should definitely make efforts to transform our lives from the old sinful and ugly to one that is clean, pure and pleasing to God.

Anonymous said...

The Heresy of Cheap Grace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrsX0rXTs8&feature=related

Grace should result in transformed lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rA0YfaQME&feature=related

Kaffein said...

"Because personally, I believe Christianity is about fulfilling God's masterplan. It is not about us, but about God.

God's masterplan is his redemption plan for His kingdom (Matthew 13:24-30). The great commission (Matthew 28:19,20) is to bring the gospel to all the world, to reclaim the souls that were lost back to His kingdom, not to build up treasures on earth."

Kaffein:
Well said! Indeed, I couldn't agree more. The redemption plan has been executed and completed. The only decision is for man to accept the redemption place. Good stuff :)

@Anon6:16 PM:
"Is there really a difference? Both are man-made. One glorifies God, one glorifies man. But in the eyes of a human mortal, does it matter?"

In the eyes of God, it matters. Are we living to please God or man?

Kaffein:
Here is where I disagree. I cannot live to please God because I will surely fail. Even now after accepting Christ. If I could live to please God, Jesus wouldn't need to come down to save me.

But Jesus so pleased God in the redemption plan and I am in Him, God accepts me based on Jesus' obedience, not mine. Hence I don't ask if I am living to please God. Rather I ask, is Jesus pleasing to God? Just as one man's disobedience brought God's wrath on all mankind, it is one Man's (Jesus) obedience the brought righteouness to me. Romans 5.

During the old covenant, a sinner brings the lamb to the high priest. The high priest checks the lamb and ensures that there are no spots or deformity. He does not check the sinner because the whole purpose of bringing the lamb is that the man has sinned. The man lays his hands on the lamb's head and confesses his sins upon the lamb. And the lamb is sacrificed.

Likewise today when we come to God, we bring Jesus who is His delight. God doesn't check us but He checks to see if Jesus' is all pure and beautiful. Indeed He is, hence He is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

So, my friend, I cannot live to please God. But God is pleased with me in Christ.

"I hope that was before you accepted Jesus, because as Christians, we are to emulate Christ. We are to strive towards having a pure heart." and Psalm 51:10 "Create in me a pure heart or God..."

Again I cannot strive to have a pure heart. My heart is forever wandering and wondering, even my mind. That is even after I have accepted Christ. BUT... Christ who has worked his salvation in me calls me holy and pure. In man's eyes, I may not be perfect; but in Christ I am.

My daughter wrote me "Dad I luf you". It isn't correct but in my eyes it is perfect. This is how I understand God is to me - He loves me in spite of my failings. I cannot strive to have a pure heart. It is either I have one, or I don't have. Because the moment you are impure, you can't have a pure heart anymore and forever. Makes sense?

When David wrote that Psalm, it is understood that he was mired in the pit of adultery, murder and lies. David dreamed of a day when his sins will never be marked against him. Thus he wrote - Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD will never count against him. David foresaw that day and it happened 2000 years ago. God does not count a Christian's sins against him.

(cont'd)

Kaffein said...

"'Cheap grace', as I understand it, refers to grace that can be enjoyed without any cost to the believer. He can go on sinning and will still be forgiven. That is true, but why is this grace cheap?"

Paul wrote where sin abounds, grace super-abounds. And Paul has been accused to encouraging believers to sin. Hence Paul wrote that there is no association between darkness and light. Once we have been transferred into God's kingdom of light, there is no darkness. Because Jesus' blood continues to keep cleansing us. So technically a believer can go on sinning. However if he really knows how much he has been saved, he will never continue sinning.

This is not 'cheap grace'. This is the power of the gospel. To set free people who are under the condemnation of their sins. Hence Paul wrote that the power of the gospel is that we will be righteous by faith. Even when you sin, you are still righteous. If righteousness can come by works (striving to live a pure live), then Paul will write "The righteous will live by his works."

Rom 1:16 (NIV) I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: firstfor the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Rom 1:17 (NIV) For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

The verses are for those who fail continously. That by faith they are still righteous with God and He accepts them based on the work of Jesus. Once a person understands this truth, sin will no longer has a hold in his life. He will automatically live rightly.

"Believers who do keep committing the same sins knowing that they would be forgiven are taking God's grace for granted. It is like a husband who keeps committing adultery, knowing that his wife would always forgive him. Although it cost his wife much, her grace is cheap to him because he does not value it."

There is no such thing as taking grace for granted. Truly I say - once you know grace, you will never take grace for granted. Never again. This IS the power. For Paul wrote: Sin has no dominion over you not because you are under law, but under grace.

So a husband who knows how much his wife loves him will not commit adultery. Not because he cannot but because he loves his wife. It is when he doubts his marriage that he has affairs. And his wife is not God who said He shall forget our iniquities and remember them no more. Which leads me to...

"So, we need to examine ourselves and confess the ugly things within to God and ask Him to create in us a pure heart."

God no longer remembers our sins (in Hebrews). Why are we reminding Him? Let me give you an analogy. When we have

- Lack, we confess Jesus as our Supplier
- Sickness, we confess Jesus as our Healer
- Opposition, we confess Jesus as our Shield and Banner
- Strive, we confess Jesus as our Peace
- Sin, we confess our sins?? No, we confess Jesus as our Righteousness!

So I no longer confess the ugly things within my heart so that God can cleanse them. He had already cleansed them 2000 years ago. I confess each time I fail I confess that Jesus is still my Righteousness! This is the power of the gospel.

I hope you can see why I say grace is never cheap. And NCC does not preach 'cheap grace' as far as I can tell.

Anonymous said...

"However if he really knows how much he has been saved, he will never continue sinning."

Very well put, agree totally. But as I have mentioned, it is the non-believers and young Christians who do not yet have this spiritual maturity that I am concerned about being 'mislead' into thinking in that technically, it is alright. And there are such persons who justify their sins that way.

"The redemption plan has been executed and completed."

No exactly completed because many are still not saved, brother. And our priority is to help the lost find their way back before Jesus comes again to restore His kingdom.

"I cannot live to please God because I will surely fail."

Yes, we can live to please God. Although we may stumble and fail sometimes, God knows our heart and that is what matters. It is not so much what we do, but the intent that counts. For God knows we are still fallible beings. Forgive me for saying this, but I notice that too much emphasis on grace seems to, ironically, condemn the man as hopeless, that he can never be good. That is a fallacy because man was originally good, as we were made in the likeness of God. But sin crept in and corrupted man's goodness. Due to sin, man was condemned to eternal death but because of Christ, we are free from this eternal condemnation when we believe and our goodness will be fully restored when He comes again. That does not mean we need not do anything until that time.

In the mean time, what God asks of us is that we try to live a life pleasing to Him. He does not expect infallibility and perfection.

Romans 12:1,2 "...to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God....be transformed by the renewing of your mind...."

"God doesn't check us but He checks to see if Jesus' is all pure and beautiful."

Yes He does. He will even test us to bring refine us so that we will grow in maturity.

Luke 8:13-15 "...but in the time of testing they fall away....those with a noble and good heart...persevering produce a good crop."

Therefore, it is important to ensure that our motivation is right or we will not withstand the test. Jesus died to free us from eternal condemnation, but it does not mean God cannot see our sins.

Being free from condemnation does not mean freedom from punishment.
God will still punishes us when we sin.

Hebrews 12:6-11 "...the Lord disciplines those He loves and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son...but God disciplines us for our good...No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

This is where I disagree with Pastor Prince who preached in one of the videos that God does not punish us anymore. He gave an example of a sadistic father who puts his son's hand on a stove that painted an evil picture of the father. But that is not a true representation of God when He punishes us. God does not punish us because He enjoys it but to guide us to maturity.

"I cannot strive to have a pure heart."

You can. We can. God wants us to strive towards it. He did not say we must be perfect all the time. As long as we try, it is a manifestation of our sincerity to live a transformed life as He has meant for us.

Anonymous said...

cont'd

Your last point about not taking grace for granted does not apply to everyone. Not everyone will understand the true meaning of God's grace or appreciate what Jesus has done for us.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean when you say that God's grace is never cheap. Agree totally.

But it can be cheap to the recipient who abuses it, just as you have described that technically, individuals can go on sinning because they know they will be forgiven. To these individuals, it is cheap because it costs them nothing. They think they don't have to change, they don't have to do anything and continue sinning as they will not be punished for it.

Do not know if Pastor Prince preaches cheap grace. I was not referring to him, but to individuals who 'believe' thinking it costs them nothing, grace is cheap.

Grace is free, and yet it is not. It is offered freely to all, but in order to receive it, we have to give up our old ways and live renewed lives. In that sense, grace is also costly, not 'free-of-charge' to those who believe.

Kaffein said...

Good discussions, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. However we can't change our beliefs overnight and also through biblical discourse. It took me >7 years to understand what grace truly means to me. And I had to renew and undo what I have learnt and also undo what I have taught others. It wasn't easy.

The only thing I can say is this: Once I have tasted God's goodness through grace in Christ, there is seriously nothing that can be compared. I would not even exchange it for any other things, not even the best preacher in the world. The bible comes alive!

I'll finish my piece here and you can respond accordingly. Only the Holy Spirit can change us, not theology, or discussions. Hope you can receive what I have that changed my life entirely. It's like a second rebirth.

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"However if he really knows how much he has been saved, he will never continue sinning."

Very well put, agree totally. But as I have mentioned, it is the non-believers and young Christians who do not yet have this spiritual maturity that I am concerned about being 'mislead' into thinking in that technically, it is alright. And there are such persons who justify their sins that way.


Kaffein:
A young believer or non-believer is shared the gospel of grace from the begining he accepts Christ. God accepts him for who he is inspite of his past. When did the preaching of the gospel of grace change/end in his walk with Christ? He is now told he has to pray harder, fast, be a testimony to show his love for God.

So in effect God initiated, but man continued. I thought it is God ends what He started; Jesus the author and perfecter/finisher of our faith.

Kaffein said...

o consider this question:
First we tell young believers that God hears their prayers because they are infants. There is grace for their mistakes. Even more so a non-believer who is still in the kingdom of darkness, and when he says the sinner's prayer, God from His throne hears it, breaking through sin, darkness, and rejection.

Wow... that a mighty powerful prayer for God to hear.

Then suddenly after becoming a Christian, we are told there are to our prayers being answered because of sin, unforgiveness, impure hearts, etc.

But didn't God hear our prayers when we had sin, unforgiveness and impure hearts? How come suddenly God stopped hearing our prayers? Or we tell others that God wants us to grow in our prayers.

I'm not stupid. I'd rather live in the infant realm so that God can supernaturally answer my prayers all the time.

It is strange, isn't it? God can hear a sinner's prayer breaking all the way through the kingdom of darkness. But He has choice hearing for his children in the kingdom of light.

No, my friend. It was grace to whom the sinner received and was touched. It will continue in grace even when he is mature. How much more will God hear our prayers we who are in the His kingdom now!

Now that will make a LOT of Christians want to pray. Because they know God hears their prayers based on the finished work of Christ whom they have accepted in the beginning. Nothing disqualifies their prayers.

You see, it is as if a person who becomes a Christian now gets trapped. He has to work hard to maintain his status with God, else he gets kicked out or becomes a fringe Christian. And God instead of the loving Father suddenly changes and expects his child to do more to prove his worth.

I'd rather be the thief at the cross. Wouldn't it be better to live like the world and enjoy as much, and call on Jesus at the last moment? Is that what we understand grace to be? A clean slate just before going heaven? Absolutely not!

Like I have mentioned, a person (young or mature Christian) who understands grace will never, ever truly go backwards into sin or law again. I'm not saying he never sins, I'm saying he will never want to be enslaved to sin again. There is a power each time he receives grace that will break that sin and its consciousness. It may take a process of time to change but he will surely change.

And when he does, we see the fruit and result and proclaim, "Wow... it is truly God's work. Because man could not have done it!" All glory goes to God. If it had been a man's discipline and hardwork, how does glory go to God?

Kaffein said...

"The redemption plan has been executed and completed."

No exactly completed because many are still not saved, brother. And our priority is to help the lost find their way back before Jesus comes again to restore His kingdom.

Kaffein:
As far as God is concerned, the redemption plan has been executed and completed. Hence Jesus said it is finished. Man is now to receive the Lamb that God provided to be saved.

And our priority is not to help them find their way back. It is to point them to Jesus. Remember the serpent on the pole Moses raised up in the wilderness? Look at the serpent on the pole, your sins are judged there and you will be healed.

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"I cannot live to please God because I will surely fail."

Yes, we can live to please God. Although we may stumble and fail sometimes, God knows our heart and that is what matters. It is not so much what we do, but the intent that counts.

Kaffein:
Good intentions does not bring salvation, my friend. If good intentions can, why do we need Jesus?

Sincerely God knows our hearts. Hence He sent Jesus to die for us. It is not how gauge how good we are. Paul says we are all like sheep gone astray. There is nothing good withing us.


"All your righteousness are like filthy rags before me" the bible tells me. Not all my sins, or wrongdoings. All what I try to do right, even the best, does not come close to God's standard.

I am quite amazed you have said that it is not so much what we do, but the intent that counts. So does God judge me because I am a sinner from Adam's lineage, or does God judge me because I do not have good intentions? Hmmm first time I'm hearing it.

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For God knows we are still fallible beings. Forgive me for saying this, but I notice that too much emphasis on grace seems to, ironically, condemn the man as hopeless, that he can never be good. That is a fallacy because man was originally good, as we were made in the likeness of God. But sin crept in and corrupted man's goodness. Due to sin, man was condemned to eternal death but because of Christ, we are free from this eternal condemnation when we believe

Exactly! If the roots of an apple tree is corrupted, no amount of washing the apples or fertlizer can ever produce good apples again! Hence Jesus said one must be born again. We are no longer under Adam's lineage but we are now Children of God! There is not more Adamic history in us! The more we hear this, the more we see ourselves as His children, the more sin loses hold over our lives.

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...and our goodness will be fully restored when He comes again. That does not mean we need not do anything until that time. In the mean time, what God asks of us is that we try to live a life pleasing to Him. He does not expect infallibility and perfection.

Kaffein:
We are already made clean in Christ's continously cleansing and flowing blood. Every second, every day. Because we know we are pleasing to God, we will produce supernaturally even greater works that comes out naturally from us. We don't need to TRY to live a life pleasing to Him. He is already pleased with us in Christ. Can you see the beauty of it?

Kaffein said...

Romans 12:1,2 "...to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God....be transformed by the renewing of your mind...."

Kaffein:
Romans 12:1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship."

This is the result of something that happened to a person who receives Christ. An act of worship. Not trying to offer our bodies on our own merit to show God that we love Him. Hence with the next verse:

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

The pattern of the world is this: Do good, get rewarded. Do bad, get the sack. The renewing of the mind is this: Christ received your bad for you to get His good. When you receive this, you will result in worship that comes from the heart. And hence we are able to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy because Christ has set us apart, pleasing because God accepts us in Christ. Imagine the immense explosion of worship when we know how much God loves us!

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"God doesn't check us but He checks to see if Jesus' is all pure and beautiful."

Yes He does. He will even test us to bring refine us so that we will grow in maturity.

Kaffein:
We are putting ourselves too highly on par with Jesus, thinking that God examines us. We don't qualify. What makes us think that we who started out broken and poor can now be examined by God as He examines the perfect Lamb of God?

He test us not with with the worldy tribulations to refine us. He doesn't need to and He could not. The devil is already working overtime to bring tribulations in our lives. We need God on our side. So God allows trials and tribulations so that He can show us His power and goodness. God doesn't test us. I don't need Him to test if I can stand up to His standards. I am not ashamed to say I have already failed Him utterly. So why continue to beat a dead horse?

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Luke 8:13-15 "...but in the time of testing they fall away....those with a noble and good heart...persevering produce a good crop."

Kaffein:
Let me share a deeper revelation here on this parable if you have not heard anyone preached before. If you read carefully, Jesus said 100-60-30 fold harvest. Why? Should not a harvest be 30-60-100, growing more each time?

To make it short and not a sermon, a believer (young or mature) who receives Christ by grace produces a 100-fold harvest. Over the years he listens to the wrong preaching that his prayers cannot be answered because of sin, or perhaps he realises he doesn't worship as much as he used to. Each disqualification lessens his harvest from 100, to 60, to 30. Even so until the devil takes whatever he has left because he disqualifies himself from God's blessings through grace.

Have you ever wondered why as a young Christian God hears our prayers so clearly but along the way it becomes harder and harder as if God is no longer there?

My friend, as you read this. Read and re-read and re-read. If we think the first person is just a non-believer, read again. It applies to us Christian when the Word of Grace is taken away by the devil.

Kaffein said...

Therefore, it is important to ensure that our motivation is right or we will not withstand the test. Jesus died to free us from eternal condemnation, but it does not mean God cannot see our sins.

Kaffein:
Our motivation will never be right. That is my stand. We cannot trust ourselves, our motivations which fluctuate everyday. We need someone solid and sure. Jesus is.

Perhaps you want to explain this verse about God seeing our sins when in Hebrews it says God will remember our sins no more? Is it only in heaven? If our sins God still remembers, how can we go heaven in the first place for Him to forget our sins? There is a flawed logic here, isn't it?

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Being free from condemnation does not mean freedom from punishment. God will still punishes us when we sin.

Hebrews 12:6-11 "...the Lord disciplines those He loves and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son...but God disciplines us for our good...No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

Kaffien:
The world will punish us for our sins and mistakes. Seriously we don't need God to be on THEIR side, cheering for the wrong team. Do read the Greek word discipline. It is a child training, not punishment for wrong as in judging.

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This is where I disagree with Pastor Prince who preached in one of the videos that God does not punish us anymore. He gave an example of a sadistic father who puts his son's hand on a stove that painted an evil picture of the father. But that is not a true representation of God when He punishes us. God does not punish us because He enjoys it but to guide us to maturity.

Kaffein:
Pst Prince is Pst Prince. I cannot answer for him and his preaching. Thus I will refrain from commenting here.

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"I cannot strive to have a pure heart."

You can. We can. God wants us to strive towards it. He did not say we must be perfect all the time. As long as we try, it is a manifestation of our sincerity to live a transformed life as He has meant for us.

Kaffein:
My friend, after the long discourse, we can try for all we want. We will still fail. God doesn't want us to strive for something that we cannot achieve. Can I say that you have achieved a pure heart? When is it pure, at which point? Like Mother Teresa?

Doesn't this sound like enlightenment? Striving to reach a higher state of being until we reach it. When? Only God knows... but we can continue trying. Ugh. Been there, tried that. Failed. Kaput!

No! I want an assurance based not on what my motivations or striving can achieve or sincerity. I want a solid foundation to know my hope is secured in God. Once my conscience is clear, I know I can fully go out for God, knowing I have Jesus on my side for my team.

Kaffein